2.11.2009

Apparently Is Does Not Take A Village...

Okay, so I watched the interview last night with the mother of the newly born octuplets, Nadya Sulman.

This is what I find so interesting about all of this, the media has once again tried to make the decision for all Americans as to whether or not a person is worthy of a good standing. What ever happened to "It takes a Village" to raise a child? Well, obviously the village (that is run by the media) has decided that this mother does not deserve any help because she went about things in a manner that they deemed "wrong!"

I personally do not agree with her actions, but that does not excuse me from helping eight little babies... or six older siblings. Why do we continue to punish a child for a parent's actions?

Nadya does not fit in the box in which the media deems worthy. She is not married. She is unemployed. She already had six children. She does not represent the perfect American family that has 2 children and uses contraceptives for the rest of their lives to keep it that way.

Would I have so many children? Goodness I hope not, but let me point out this one amazing fact to you all...

It was God who created each of these souls. It was God that wove them all in her womb. It was God that knew she would be an outcast and life would be extremely difficult and I believe He will stand beside her (when Americans chose to turn away from her) and support her.

You may be saying "Sure, but is God going to pay the water bill?" Yes... He will.

The media will never point out the fact that God played the most important part in all of this. They will say it is unethical. They will say she is unfit. They will (and have) make it all sound so terrible that diaper companies will ignore her, formula companies will ignore her and even Chevrolet will ignore her!

I mean come on... families with multiples have all done what she did, in vitro fertilization, but because they were married and cute, the endorsements came in. My kids love to watch Jon and Kate Plus 8 who have a television show, and it seems to me like they are always going on some vacation that some nice person has paid for for them. Kate even had her tummy tucked for free! Don't get me wrong-I think it is great, but I think it is a little silly that so many people are amazed that this family of eight children are so interesting that the show is a hit.

But Nadya will get nothing and she will still go home and try her best to raise her children, in spite of what Sociology professors are saying about "the lack of attention to each child will cause mental harm." Gee... let's dig those babies a hole to climb out of before they can even walk why don't we?

But I forget that many Americans think it is acceptable to have 2.5 children and the families with more are looked at as "weird." We only have 4 kids and so many people think we are nuts, but I just tell them that "Yes we are nuts... but I can't keep my husband off of me." That usually leaves them speechless.

I know that many people have an opinion on this, and that is fine. I just hope that our opinion of Nadya (who I personally found as sweet and pleasant) does not affect what we think of her children... or children in general.

The day that the media starts saying that children are a burden and when we as Americans start saying things like "Why should my tax dollars go to pay for so many children?" will be a sad day in my opinion. China comes to mind...

Just last night my daughter Hope was reading from the Bible for her Religion homework...

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46

Hope looked at me when she was done reading it and said "I hope I'm on the right!" I smiled at her and took a deep breathe and said "Me too... me too."

**Update... I have spent the morning looking on NBC.com where Ann Curry said I could go to make a donation to this family. I have found nothing.**

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54 comments:

Domestically Disabled Girl said...

Ahh, thanks for sharing that, as this does seem to be a topic that has polarized the country. It makes me laugh when people I know comment on how terrible it is that she receives food stamps, assistance, ect, when I know at one time they did too.
Oh well. Thanks for the verse, it was a nice refresher.

Domestically Disabled Girl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jonni said...

Thank you for saying what I have been feeling/thinking. I have never seen the kate plus 8 show. I tune out when people around me start talking about the show!! The joke around our house is that on some days we are all goats. But keep pushing for lambs.
Thanks again.

Amazing Racer said...

I cannot believe the ridiculousness of it all. Our gov't is doling out gabillions of dollars and people have the audacity to judge a single mom on food stamps?

REALLY? Should we let them starve? Good grief! It's so, so sad to hear such a harsh judgement being passed onto innocent children.

Jud said...

From what I have read about this lady, she does seem a bit odd. So were my parents, and so am I as a parent.

I can't say I agree with her choices or see the world in the way you do, but then I think my neighbor's 15 year old niece who is pregnant made some poor choices, too. But I think the teen will be lessly harshly critiqued than this lady.

You are right - God created these young'uns and they have a part to play in His plan. Maybe part of it is to show that there are loopholes and gaps in social services that need to be filled, moral and ethical questions to be debated, discussed and prayed over. But first and foremost the children need to be loved and cared for.

Shannon said...

I'm a believer - I know that God works in ways that we may never understand. That being said...

Just because God made these babies, doesn't mean the situation is right. God lets things happen for a reason - everything happens for a reason. He lets wars continue, people die on the streets, etc - it's all for a reason which we may not understand - but He could stop it all in just one second.

My point is, yes God made these babies (not the natural way, may I point out) but that doesn't mean that everything she did was "A-Okay." Which, I know you pointed out - you don't agree with what she's done. But to say that because God had a hand in it.... That's like saying God is letting the war continue so it must be okay.

I don't think it's right to have babies that you can't support. Not on purpose atleast. To intentionally go out and get pregnant (after already having a house full of kids) is insane and we shouldn't be made to support such a thing. If people want to voluntarily donate money or services to her, then that's fine. But don't take my tax dollars and give them to her just because she chose to have over a dozen children.

june cleaver said...

Shannon, you are right when you say that this is not OKay... I agree. But I also believe that God has his hand in everything-even the crap that goes on (war). Does he cause pain? Does he cause war? No-absolutely not, but he does weave everything into his path, and in this case, if His path is to place upon our hearts the gift of giving rather than the bitterness of judging others, well, I hope I am doing what He wants of me.

That is just my own heart.

Anonymous said...

I too feel for the babies. They need to be loved and fed and that is a fact! No way around it. They are here and they will get hungry. If you hear where we can send some money for food for them let us know.
Love,
Aunt Barbara

Christine said...

I am intrigued by this story. I was also watching last night. I am sure the media is having a hayday with this one.

They should really come over to Minnesota and check out the couple who had a mobile home full of 118 cats and a huge doll collection with dolls in the fridge!!! Crazy world heh!

momto5minnies said...

I agree Cris and I especially liked what Jud said ...
"God created these young'uns and they have a part to play in His plan. Maybe part of it is to show that there are loopholes and gaps in social services that need to be filled, moral and ethical questions to be debated, discussed and prayed over. But first and foremost the children need to be loved and cared for."

I think the situation is being looked at in such a negative way (doesn't it seem like everything is these days). This woman to so many is a freak. She did make a choice that many would not make, but that doesn't mean that she and her should be punished for it. I feel terrible that her own mother has painted such a sad picture of her.

The media has gotten out of hand with this story ... it just makes me sick.

Thanks for the MATTHEW verse. I just spoke so highly of Matthew just yesterday ;)

Stacy said...

Here is her website:
http://www.thenadyasulemanfamily.com/

Thank you for posting your perspective. I think I got caught up in the media frenzy and their line of thought that is being forced on us and was unable to think for myself! I completely agree that the children are a gift from God, no matter what. She said in her interview that she did not think half would take. And then for them all to take- it was pretty amazing. And as a Catholic, I understand that she did not want to "waste" the embryos that had already been collected. Wow- all I can say.

Lisa said...

This story has so many angles on it that it's tough for me to decide what I think. First, being a Catholic, I do not agree with in-vitro in the first place. I believe that God made some women/men unable to have children for a reason, a reason that is for them to find out (perhaps to adopt children? house and care for foster children?). BUT-I do think the decision not to destroy the embryos already created was correct, and to not do 'selective reduction' was also correct. Second, our culture just has a weird problem with large families. This is something that has definately changed over the years, as there were many more large families in our not so distant past. I have no problem with folks wanting as many children as possible. I think this mom has a genuine love for children, and it is too bad that there is no father in their lives-it sure would be a blessing for mom and kids. I also don't have an issue with helping people-and the scripture about that speaks volumes-but the part that I am struggling with is this: personal responsibility. It is the very issues that are country is dealing with on a whole with the stimulus and tarps and all that. And most of that I do not agree with! I do not want our country to have nationalized health care, and I am not fond of passing tax burdens onto our next generations to pay for, essentially, entitlements. I believe in helping and lending a hand-but, it would just seem to me that this mom and her children are going to need long term help-and that is an issue of personal responsibility- the rest of us have it also! The rest of us plan our families based on what we can provide for, or do not plan but just know that we have a budget to work with and stay in the budget and pay our bills. There are lots of families out there that would be able to adopt some of those children without government help-which will be at some point needed to raise this family.

Alicia Seevers said...

I live in California and do not feel that this woman is being harshly judged. She obviously has some severe psychological issues and my heart bleeds for those children because of a selfish and unethical decision by a woman and an ignorant fertility doctor who should be sued for malpractice or lose his license.

I am Catholic and I believe in God, but I have a hard time when people try to say that children conceived via IVF are God's work. As much as my heart aches for people who should be able to have children and cannot I do not believe that God wanted this woman to have children, she went and used science to have children. God helped them grow and be born healthy, but she conceived these in a non-natural way.

It's just my thoughts and I honestly do not think we have heard the end of this story. I think her mother has a hand to play and I have yet to hear one person in California who thinks the media is being too harsh with this woman. Go ahead and say that we are a different type in California, but all we are simply doing is calling a spade a spade! That woman has major psychological issues and my heart bleeds for those 14 children!

Paula said...

I so appreciate your thoughts but I don't agree with you. Hope that is okay. I think it is terrible that this lady with the help of a media seeking doctor gave birth to 8 children when she already had 6 at home that she couldn't take care of. I am tired of taking care of kids that people have without any thought of how they will be taken care of. I think if God had a hand in implanting these babies then my hope is that he will show her the way to raise them without ruining their lives by becoming a side show. I feel for the poor children. It is certainly not their fault their mom has a lose screw!

Beth (A Mom's Life) said...

What a wonderful post!

"You may be saying "Sure, but is God going to pay the water bill?" Yes... He will."

Yes, he will and then some!

Thanks again for saying so eloquently what I have been thinking.

june cleaver said...

Paula-of course it is okay to disagree with me! Actually, my husband and I had a similar conversation just this morning--he agrees with you, and I do too... in the part where people need to be responsible when planning a family.

like you, I do not agree with what the Doctor did.

like you, I do not agree with the way in which she kept becoming pregnant.

I do agree with you in that I pray she raises her children normally, and not as a side show.

and you are right... this is not the fault of the children.

So what are we disagreeing about? Not helping them because their mother chose to do this?
Hmmm... our taxpayer dollars pay for a lot of things that I do not agree with, and although she is on food stamps I think she is getting the money to support her family through student loans (her claim is that she can pay back a loan, she cannot pay back welfare)

You are absolutely 100% right when you say that you hope she does not ruin thier lives, but my point is this as well... I hope the media does not ruin their lives either, it looks like both are doing a pretty good job at is so far.

That is why I feel the need to help these children.

All children.

Tracy, mom2many said...

I find it fascinating that the choice to have children is irresponsible but the choice to kill them is protected. I'm sick of paying for abortions, repeat abortions, for women too lazy to either parent or stop having sex. Harsh? Yes, but not any harsher than the judgments on Nadyah.

I may not agree with what she did, or how, but it's done now. She's a hard worker, I bet she finds a way.

mike said...

Shannon (above) said it best for me. God made them (but you have a doctor manipulating God's work). Those children are here now and deserve love and nurturing. You can condemn (with your words) the mother but not the children.

Kelly said...

I feel this story acutely. I am pregnant with my 8th baby (all seperate births)and don't want to share it with any family or friends. I know they will have no joy for me and I don't want to have to deal with their judgement and comments amidst all my hormonal glory. :P At best, I look forward to being ignored. Don't get me wrong, my husband and I are very happy. We are practicing Catholics (meaning we use NFP) and view children as a blessing from God always, unplanned or planned. My husband works very hard to support us and is blessed with a very good job including terrific benefits (thank God). So, overall I don't have much in common with the octuplet mom, except that we all get grouped into the same bunch of "looney's" that have super-sized families. You know, those people that think you must be CRAZY to have "all those kids." No sane person would have more than two for pitty sake! I don't know what this octuplets mom's story is but I do know the media is quick to paint her as having mental problems. This of course doesn't help me and my situation any. People will hear 8 children and this woman will come to mind first, thus casting her shadow over me and others with large families. Unfortunate, but true. Anywho, I'm starting to ramble here so I'll stop. Thanks June for your take on this, it was refreshing compared to most others.

Kelly said...

I forgot to mention there is another good discussion on this over at faithandfamilylive.com

http://www.faithandfamilylive.com/blog/the_right_to_motherhood/

Gretchen said...

Danielle Bean blogged on this as well today. If you're interested:
http://www.faithandfamilylive.com/blog/the_right_to_motherhood#When:12:30:00Z

I do agree with Shannon.

RiverPoet said...

A friend pointed me to your site. Nice post! Personally, I think Nadya has bitten off a little more than she can chew, and it's quite possible that she has some need of psychotherapy to find what unmet needs she is trying to fill with children. But I do believe she is going to love those kids and that she does come across as a sweet and eloquent girl. I wish her the best - D

June's MA said...

"Why should my tax dollars go to support these children..." Do you have food on your plate, a roof over your head, a bed to sleep in each night? Then you are not going without anything you NEED even though you are paying taxes. Besides there are plenty of other things my taxes pay for that I object to more than helping families.

Blessings,
June's MA

Anonymous said...

I think this woman was crazy and irresponsible for having invitro and having all eight implanted. This was a calculated decision and this woman needs psychiatric help. This decision was about her and not about the children.

I'm sure the state will end up paying for all her needs and I'm sure the publicity she craves will bring in some cash.

Encouraging this type of irresponsibility is it's own type of sin.

mare said...

The last comment was not posted as anonymous. I don't want it to be.

I came from a large family and love large families. Large families are not the issue, it's taking care of children well that is the issue for me. This twit isn't even married. She can't support herself. She can't watch all the children by herself. So she HAS to depend on others continually for her desire to have more children. That's called selfish. It's wrong.

Anonymous said...

This is just another example of people expecting to be bailed out of messes and situations created by their own greed and selfish motivation. Just like Wall Street we are now footing the bill for the greedy selfishness of people like Nadya. Yes we are going to pay for it now with our tax dollars and later with the crime that these future criminals, drug addicts, and deadbeats will obviously inflict on us. The other point I would like to make is why the fans of Nadya aren't donating to real kids in need like starving kids in the poor countries all over the world?? I guess they aren't people and don't live here so ignore them

Kimberly said...

The situation is so bizarre, and I feel this woman needs our prayers, not open hostility and condemnation. Our tax dollars are paying for much worse, and much more ridiculous items. I am always suspicious of the government deciding anything.
I have been married to the same man for 24 years, he works hard to support our family we have 9 children, 7 still at home, and quite frankly what goes on in my home and my bedroom is no ones business. People think we're nuts for lovingly accepting children from God, and rejecting the contraceptive mentality. I just bet the media would have a field day with us. 9 children on 10 acres with 2 dogs, a whole bunch of irresponsible cats, 6 chickens a rooster, and 2 crazy parents that still love each other.

june cleaver said...

Wow... annon, did you just say that these babies are going to grow up to be criminals, drug addicts and deadbeats?

Unreal. Your compassion is touching.

Also, no one said that we do not send money to other children in other countries... do not assume to know anything about me or where I send my money. You would be surprised and you would be embarrassed by your assessment.

So what do you propose we do annon? Do you think the state should force her to be sterilized or should they force her to give up her babies? Go ahead and tell me what your judgement would be.

Blessed Mama said...

This is why I have fallen in love with your blog. You are so honest, and you often say exactly what I've been thinking. My mom was just saying, "There should be a law against this!" I was stunned. I said,"ummm, GOD made those babies!!" And yes, China keeps coming to my mind too...and it's worrisome..I wonder if our country will at some point try to follow that path. Obama is so proabortion that it's scary to think about.
Anyway, thanks again for putting this out there!

Shannon said...

To June's MA:

Yes, there are plenty of things that our tax dollars are spent towards that I do not agree with and could better spend somewhere else. But, does that mean that I should just suck it up and be happy to support this lady who took it upon herself to create a disaster of a situation? No, it doesn't. I think it's time for us all to become responsible adults and do something for ourselves for a change. Quit looking for handouts - if those handouts weren't there, would we have the problems we do now today? If that mother knew that she would have no assitance, do you think she would still go out and create a housefull of babies that she couldn't afford to feed?

I don't think the question here is whether it was right or wrong, created by God or not - the question should be why we allow these sort of things to take place in society today? I, myself, think it's time that we changed some things.

BTW, I have no problem donating my hard earned $ - my husband and I donate more than the average household in our community. So, I'm not some stingy young lady who doesn't have a heart.

june cleaver said...

Shannon, no one ever said you were stingy. This is just dialog.

But, I have to ask... what do you propose we do to not allow this thing to happen again? Do we tell a woman when she has had enough children because of what her income is? Do we take away her human rights because she does not have a paycheck? Do we force sterilization upon her because we deem her as unfit?

In this instance, I think it is a good example that may open people's eyes to IVF and have them make stricter laws... and also, I believe the doctor in this case is at fault as well for implanting all 6 at one time. So, the good that may come out of this is that IVF is not entered into lightly-I have friends who have gone through it and I am aware of the fear and struggles, but they are also responsible adults who sought out responsible doctors in order to fulfill their dreams of having a baby-or babies, and everything worked out beautifully. Do I think Nadya was completely selfish and irresponsible? Yes, but the babies are here now, and they need help. Shame on us for denying infants help.

But those were her babies. She did not want them frozen for life-or worse, destroyed.

So what is worse? Being able to live life (as hard as it may or may not be for these babies) or to never have that chance because the embryo would be destroyed.

IVF is not "natural"-so the argument can be put forth that these babies were not conceived in the "Godly" sense, but they were still conceived. Do they just get destroyed?

The question of us allowing things like this to take place in society today is because there are no laws limiting such things. Our laws allowing abortions have many people crying that she should have done just that.

Do we put a cap on how many children you can have based on your income? If you make 100K you can have 4, 50K you can have 2, 20K you can have 1-but only until they turn seven, and if you are below 10K you are not allowed children at all?

I know that is not the point you are making... but is this the direction that this country is going in?

I have no argument with the fact that I do not belive she should have had IVF in the first place, I do not argue with the fact that she has a lot of stinkin' kids, my point is this-they are here now, and I for one would like to see them succeed if for only because they are in this world with my own children. They have started out with a blank sheet... what is America going to write on it? "You were not worthy."?

Call me soft, but no child should be hungry or sick or alone.

Shannon said...

There should be more and stricter laws in place when it comes to IVF. I'm not saying that people who don't make a set amount of money shouldn't have children - no where does that leave my mouth. That thought is just insane. I was born in a very low income family and I turned out wonderfully (if I do say so myself).

My point was, no one (with the exception of celebrities) has the $ to support that many children and to bring that many children into the world when you have no means to support them is selfish, wrong, and unjust. Now, do I think those kids will turn into criminals because their mother can't support them? No. I don't believe that the amount of $ a person has, makes the person. Their upbringing does.

Yes, the kids are here. Yes, they need financial support. Do I think I should support them because their mother did this nonsense ON PURPOSE? No. She had enough dang kids to begin with. Her reasons were selfish and I don't like to financially support those who make these stupid decisions. Now, that being said...Will my tax $ go towards her - likely so. I can't stop that.

Case in point, if you want to support the crazy lady - do so. Send her all your $ if you want. Will I be making any donations? No.

Kasia said...

My point was, no one (with the exception of celebrities) has the $ to support that many children and to bring that many children into the world when you have no means to support them is selfish, wrong, and unjust.

I dunno. Do you count the Duggars as celebrities?

I'm going to put aside the case of Nadya Suleman for a moment, because (a) I don't know enough about it, just have heard a news report or two, and (b) I think this is a great example of the expression "hard cases make bad law."

I know families with four, five, six, seven, and more children. I know of families (that friends of mine know) with over ten. To my knowledge, none of them are on public assistance, and in most cases, they are single-income (usually the mom stays home). That suggests to me that it *can* be done - people *can* support a lot of children on less-than-celebrity income.

Is there a lot of penny-pinching? Yeah - they're frugal. Do they have new cars, and Wiis, and so forth? Not usually. Mom probably doesn't get a professional haircut very often, and Dad probably doesn't golf much.

But you know - those things aren't necessities.

Brand-new clothes are not necessities. I had hand-me-downs, and there were only 3 kids in my family.

Dining out is not a necessity.

Big TVs are not necessities.

Each child having their own bedroom is not a necessity.

For the record, I disagree with IVF. But not because of the number of babies it can produce. And while part of me would love to see stricter limits on IVF, like so many people here, I am loath to say that the government should be granted any ability to encroach on people's rights to have children. Just because some people will be irresponsible, imprudent, and make bad decisions, doesn't mean that they should be forcibly stopped from having children.

I would suggest looking into a concept called "the law of unintended consequences" - it's what June is getting at in her comments. She's not saying - nor am I - that you think the gov't should jump in and regulate how many babies a family can have. What she's saying - and I think she's right - is that our attitude towards Nadya Suleman can open a door towards that, even though it's not our intent. The "slippery slope" is a fallacy in formal logic, but both social change and law tend to operate based on precedents. I don't want to see a precedent set that allows the government to determine how many babies is "enough".

Kelly said...

Thank you June! Thank you, Kasia! Exactly what I was thinking and feel. I fear where this may lead. It doesn't take much for our society and media to trash large families.

Anonymous said...

I live in CA and have what most consider a large family--5 kids. I just wish that if she wanted a large family that she would have adopted a large family. There are so many babies that need homes!

Kasia said...

June - here is the web site a PR firm helped her launch, where I believe you can make a donation:

http://www.thenadyasulemanfamily.com/

Jonni said...

Holy smokes, great to see the dialog. This situation has made us all start 'thinking'. Thanks June for letting it go on.

mare said...

That doctor should lose his license. NOW! He should NEVER have implanted any, much less eight embryos. It's ridiculous.

We will obviously have to pay now. The real outrage is the fact this idiot doctor did this in the first place. And I believe this woman is mental. Many of us commenting here have children and know it's difficult to give even two children the attention, the education and the steady home life they deserve.

This woman (I use the term loosely) in her dementia thought that she could take care of eight babies plus???? Without a husband????? Without a job and only on public assistance? And some of you sypathize with this woman??

Come on people some of you actually sound silly. Those babies will be taken care of by the state I'm sure. It's the idiot doctor that should have his license removed and prosecuted (I know there is no crime for this YET).

Anonymous said...

"Just because some people will be irresponsible, imprudent, and make bad decisions, doesn't mean that they should be forcibly stopped from having children." Are you kidding me??? Irresponsible, imprudent people making bad decisions have NO RIGHT having children. Not just anyone should have a kid!

june cleaver said...

Mare, I think we are more concerned with the children here...

Annon... I ask again, what do you propose we do? Forcibly sterilize people who we do not see as fit? Who do not fit into our personal scope of normal?

correct me if I am wrong... but we live in America right?

Just a thought.

Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

June, like many people, I find the mother a little creepy--and the media is certainly not helping. (They're now quoting Angelina Jolie as feeling "creeped out" about her. How is that helping???) I at least don't want her to fail. For the children's sakes, I don't want her to fail--but the media seems to be hoping that she will, so they can say they told her so.

You're right: it's the children who matter the most here, and they're getting ignored.

Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

PS -- I am one of four kids myself and we don't consider ourselves a big family by any means!

cjd said...

Amen Sister

Kasia said...

Mare - I don't remember anyone on the comments saying they thought she'd made a good decision. What we are talking about are (a) the children, and (b) whether the state should have the right to decide when you've had enough kids.

Anonymous - let me quote you:

Irresponsible, imprudent people making bad decisions have NO RIGHT having children. Not just anyone should have a kid!

If I could change one word of this, it would be "right", and I would change it to "business". Whether I am responsible or not does not change my fundamental human rights.

Perhaps I ought not to have a child, prudentially speaking. But there's a huge leap between saying that, and saying that I should be forcibly prevented from having a child. And one of the reasons June and I are arguing against the latter statement is that once you introduce the subjective judgment of a third party, you're opening a really ugly can of worms.

I repeat: I have not heard anyone say that Nadya Suleman made a good decision here, or that the doctor did. What we are talking about is whether individual human beings - including you and me - have the right to have babies, or whether that right is conditional, and is subject to the government's say-so.

Anonymous said...

Sorry but the woman is completely nuts. She had a nose job and lip injections to look like Angelina Joie and now she is harassing her with letters. It's true, Jolie has publically said she is "creeped" out by this stalker woman. Nobody should have 14 kids unless they can afford it. She has serious mental issues and God help those kids. The dr. who did this should be looked into. Who paid for the IVF? It's not cheap.

Amy said...

I really like your blog, June. I think you're funny and touching and you must be a wonderful mother yourself, otherwise you wouldn't be so worried about this woman's 14children. However, I must respectfully disagree with you.

If we're going to quote the Bible, you might want to look up the verses where it talks about the sanctity of marriage. I realize that many, many people are having babies out of wedlock, but I don't believe that's what God intended as the best way to start a life. I also don't think that God wanted someone's "sadness about being an only child" as the reason for having 14 children on her own. I agree that we shouldn't intentionally punish these children for their mother's self-centered decision and the unethical actions of her fertility doctor, but if you read about poverty and the plight of children in welfare situations, you can see that their lives will already be less than perfect. I'm sorry - I just don't believe that love is enough (my mom was one of 6 kids and she can attest to that).

Also, you can make the argument that it was God's will that these children were born, but God allows many things to happen that are a mystery. Part of it is our free will.

There are many families in my area (I live in metro Detroit) who are hurting because they have lost their jobs and many have even lost their houses. They have children too and they are suffering because of events beyond their control. So, who should I donate money to? People who didn't ask for their tough situations but have fallen on hard times anyhow or a woman who deliberately put her 14 children in the welfare system because she was traumatized by her childhood?

I'll say a prayer for these children because I really do think they're going to need it. However, that's all I'm able to give them.

Anonymous said...

I feel very very sorry for the babies but I think the woman is nuts. Give those babies to people who are able to raise them. It is MY personal opinion that she does not deserve them. And since it is us taxpayers who helped her get pregnant with them and who will help her raise them then we should have something to say about how they are raised. I think this is just WRONG

Pharmacist Erin said...

I'm a Christian, but I don't believe that God had a direct purpose to allowing these babies to be born. He gives us the ability to make choices. In my opinion, she made the wrong choice. Over and over again. I do agree that there should be stricter laws for IVF. To say that someone should have as many children as they want has its limitations. It works for the Duggars, because they can afford it. It doesn't work for her, because she must rely on the graciousness of others. To "assume" that others will provide financial security for children that she "chose" to create is very irresponsible and selfish and puts a burden on others.

Anonymous said...

Having children is not a right, it is a privelege and some people do not have the mental faculties present to be a good parent. She is a perfect example. Having 14 kids(!!!) without any means of supporting them and no husband/partner? She's insane. I am a RN who works in NICU and there are a LOT of complete idiots out there who have no clue and should not be breeding and put their kids in harm's way due to their ignorance. Animals have more sense than this woman.

Kasia said...

Having children is not a right, it is a privelege

OK, a privilege. Granted by whom? Privileges are granted by someone or some entity. I read your comments and get the impression that you think the government is the grantor, because you seem to think that the government should exercise the authority to limit as well. Am I reading correctly? If not, could you please clarify?

(For the record, I actually agree that having children is a privilege rather than a right...but I believe it is a privilege granted by God, not the state. And as such, I think the state has no business getting involved.)

I repeat, for the umpteenth time: No one here has yet expressed ANY support for Suleman's DECISIONS. In fact, everyone I've read has said (at the most generous), "Boy oh boy, what a colossal disaster."

And what others and I have said, in addition to that, is that no matter how much of a disaster this woman's life may be, the government has no business saying who can and cannot breed. No, not even walking disasters like we think she probably is.

Pop quiz:

-One baby policy - which country? Hint: not one known for its stellar human rights record. In fact, women who take out their STATE-ISSUED IUD and get pregnant can be (and are) forced to have abortions. That's not something I want to see here. Do you?

-Forced sterilization of people who "should not be breeding"? Hint: not anyone we would ever say we wanted to emulate. And here I thought the Allies won WWII. Silly me.

Bottom line: Suleman may be a whack job - I don't know. I'm not a psychiatrist, a psychologist, or a therapist. (Come to think of it, I've never thought Angelina Jolie was a model of sound mental health either...but again, I'm not qualified to say.)

Anyway, from a prudential standpoint, Suleman almost certainly SHOULD NOT have had those babies. BUT, dear anonymous NICU nurse, neither you nor the government has the RIGHT to (a) forcibly sterilize her (under any circumstance), (b) force her to abort her children, or (c) take away her children without actual evidence of abuse or neglect.

I have yet to hear any argument that they should be taken away, other than "she can't possibly take care of them." There is a huge difference between "can't possibly take care of them" (which at this point is conjecture, even if it turns out to be true) and "is not taking care of them" (which would presumably be buttressed by EVIDENCE of ACTUAL abuse or neglect).

Because, you know, that crappy Tom Cruise movie from five or six years ago notwithstanding, we here in the United States don't punish people before they actually commit a crime. And I'm not aware of any criminal charges that have even been brought, much less proven, against her.

Maybe you could tell us exactly who should get to decide whether a given woman should be allowed to have kids, and on what grounds? Let's see some policy outlines, so we can see just how wrong we were about you, and how just and well-thought-out your proposals really are.

Unless, of course, you're just ranting because you have what I can see must be a difficult and frustrating job, in which you daily see the heartbreaking truth that some people don't make very good parents; and from that you have somehow extrapolated that, since no one else can stop bad parents from having children, the government should?

I understand. My mother volunteered in a NICU. It's a beautiful and a horrible place: beautiful because you are saving babies who would have surely died a generation ago; but horrible because some of the babies there might not have been there if their parents had been more responsible.

I get that.

Please understand that no one here is saying it's OK to be a bad parent. No one here is saying that everyone who has children is prepared to care for them.

All we're saying is that the government is not, should not be, and must not be the arbiter of who is and is not qualified. Because there is no guarantee that those who wield the authority will be just.

AMY - I'm in metro Detroit too. I've been watching all this unfold right along with you. It's ugly. My aunt just got laid off after 20 years at her company. She's 58, divorced, and basically SOL. And she's just one of the millions - but you know that.

June's not saying *you* should donate money to Nadya Suleman. Nor am I. Heck - June's more generous than I am. I haven't given Nadya Suleman anything.

The only thing I'll say is this: our money may be a finite resource, but God's love isn't. And He loves Nadya Suleman, and all 14 of her kids, every bit as much as he loves me, you, June, my aunt, our NICU nurse, and my dear friends (with kids) who, like so many people in Detroit right now, are on the brink of foreclosure. Which I think was June's original point. And I think it's important to remember that.

BACK TO NICU NURSE AND ANYONE ELSE WHO'S LISTENING -

If there's one thing I've taken away from watching the political BS that's been going on for the past six months or so, it's that our elected representatives don't necessarily want what's best for the country first and foremost. Seems like they're always ready to make political hay in the short run, even when doing so will jeopardize everyone's well-being (even their own constituents') in the long run.

Those are the people we elect. They are the face of the government. That is who would be able to determine whether my husband and I (or your husband and you) should be permitted to reproduce...unless they delegated it to yet another government bureaucracy, of course.

Frankly, I don't trust them to write a bill about plastic spoons without making political hay. Why on earth should I entrust them with something as important as whether someone can be allowed to have children?!?

~ Straight Shooter ~ said...

Holy Shmokes June!
You're a girl after my own heart!
Rilin' up the masses...Yee Haw. Go Girly!
I agree with every single thing you said. every single thing.

mare said...

Kasia, yes there absolutely should be some law that prevents the ivf doctor from impregnating an insane woman with 8 embryos. YES. THERE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE!

DivaHick said...

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not going to say it's not our Christian duty to help this family, but how would you feel if at Mass on Sunday they announced that every parishoner was required to give a certain amount and you wouldn't be able to take Communion until you do? That'd probably be my last day in that parish. It's the same thing, we don't have a choice as to whether we give her our money. The government decided to do it for us. And if we don't give them our money we are penalized.

mommiebear2 said...

http://www.thenadyasulemanfamily.com/ ~ I did not go through all of your comments so someone may have already sent you this but just in case. :)